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Boojum

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The only problem with the non-subscription LightRoom is that it hasn't been getting updates for new cameras for a while now, so images from all the new toys can't be read by it.

I understand that there are no new profiles. However I downloaded the A7M II profile with the last upgrade along with the lens profiles and I am sure that the old Leicas are in there and the lenses. I have old lenses, non-Leica, and they are common so chances are that they are included. The new VoigtlƤnders, no. It is a moot point anyway. There is an independent fellow who builds new LR lens profiles which can be imported sans Adobe. I edit little, have only recently turned the DNG's back on for the Leicas and I guess I will do it for the A7M III also. I doubt I can outsmart the Sony engineers in what they do when they make a JPG. IIRC there is a Linux JPG editor which mods the file but does not overlay and save the file unless instructed to do so. The effect is that all the changes are in one change which degrades the JPG less. FWIW I see little degradation anyway. Pixel peeping is not my game. Image, composition, color, interest, yes. Counting eyelashes, no. We can't all love the same woman.
 

Jeff A

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The only problem with the non-subscription LightRoom is that it hasn't been getting updates for new cameras for a while now, so images from all the new toys can't be read by it.
How convenient for Adobe. Lots of software is going subscription these days and if you use old software for business, it probably has Security issues.
 

Boojum

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How convenient for Adobe. Lots of software is going subscription these days and if you use old software for business, it probably has Security issues.

I do not think of Adobe as evil. New releases of LR could cost money, too. Adobe just went to a different business model along with a lot of software foundries. I am not saying I like this new model. This is just an observation.

I understand caution with software. But if that package were bleeding it would be pretty well known. I see that recently routers have been infected with malware. I checked about updating the firmware in mine. I cannot. Starlink. I guess they handle it on their end. They would not want a massive data breach throughout their network.

FWIW I scan daily on Linux and whenever I am on W10 when I also update whatever needs updating. I also update Linux whenever updates are available. I believe that the most recent software is almost always the most secure. The only virus I have had was on a BLU phone and I had to change connected emails two or three times to be free of that. The phones are useless now. Some evil critter is in there, and will not allow updates. I keep my Nokia up to snuff, too. This is nothing to be taken lightly. Luckily I have pissed all my money off on cameras so there is nothing in the bank to be stolen. Hah! ;o)
 
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Jeff A

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I do not think of Adobe as evil. New releases of LR could cost money, too. Adobe just went to a different business model along with a lot of software foundries. I am not saying I like this new model. This is just an observation.

I understand caution with software. But if that package were bleeding it would be pretty well known. I see that recently routers have been infected with malware. I checked about updating the firmware in mine. I cannot. Starlink. I guess they handle it on their end. They would not want a massive data breach throughout their network.

FWIW I scan daily on Linux and whenever I am on W10 when I also update whatever needs updating. I also update Linux whenever updates are available. I believe that the most recent software is almost always the most secure. The only virus I have had was on a BLU phone and I had to change connected emails two or three items to be free of that. The phones are useless now. Some evil critter is in there, and will not allow updates. I keep my Nokia up to snuff, too. This is nothing to be taken lightly. Luckily I have pissed all my money off on cameras so there is nothing in the bank to be stolen. Hah! ;o)
I don't think of Adobe as being evil. I have a subscription and will continue to do so.
 

Brownie

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They're not evil, but they're certainly not noble. The ideal software model (IMO, only) would be a program that costs somewhere around $100 and is updated for free with a few new features over some limited period, say 2 years. After that a new version would be released with existing users being offered an upgrade at something south of the purchase price.

Adobe has built themselves an empire and has somewhat of a captive audience, everyone else is an also-ran. While it's not a monopoly it absolutely allows them to set their own pricing without paying much attention to how competitive they are.
 

Jeff A

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They're not evil, but they're certainly not noble. The ideal software model (IMO, only) would be a program that costs somewhere around $100 and is updated for free with a few new features over some limited period, say 2 years. After that a new version would be released with existing users being offered an upgrade at something south of the purchase price.

Adobe has built themselves an empire and has somewhat of a captive audience, everyone else is an also-ran. While it's not a monopoly it absolutely allows them to set their own pricing without paying much attention to how competitive they are.
I don't agree with the policy but many software titles are subscription only these days.. I do some IT work for a local company and they use and need Microsoft Office, QuickBooks and AutoCAD. All of these are subscription only and are very pricey. After one year, they do not only not get updates, you can't even pay to get support. The beauty of the Adobe products is that I can pick up the phone and call them and talk to a human, and that is a 24/7 service and so far, they have answered pretty quickly. When I need that help, the $10.00 per month seems pretty trivial.
 

Brownie

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I don't agree with the policy but many software titles are subscription only these days.. I do some IT work for a local company and they use and need Microsoft Office, QuickBooks and AutoCAD. All of these are subscription only and are very pricey. After one year, they do not only not get updates, you can't even pay to get support. The beauty of the Adobe products is that I can pick up the phone and call them and talk to a human, and that is a 24/7 service and so far, they have answered pretty quickly. When I need that help, the $10.00 per month seems pretty trivial.
All fine. I work for a multi-national engineer/consultant firm. We use all of those mentioned plus Revit and several others. In one case we're talking about programs for corporations, and the other is for individuals. $10 a month is trivial until you do it how many times? How many forums do you support? Flickr? Other clubs or groups? It adds up.
 

Jeff A

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All fine. I work for a multi-national engineer/consultant firm. We use all of those mentioned plus Revit and several others. In one case we're talking about programs for corporations, and the other is for individuals. $10 a month is trivial until you do it how many times? How many forums do you support? Flickr? Other clubs or groups? It adds up.
Yes, it sure does.
 

Boojum

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Libre Office or Open Office will do well over 90% of what MS Office does and do it for free. There may be a small fee for businesses, one-time. The old model of pay and get updates for a couple of years and then buy a new release is still around with some software foundries.

In defense of Adobe, part of how they got where they are is by coming to market with way the best package and by pouring money into it to keep it the best. Others have caught up but are too late to market. It is like ProTools in audio. Not the best but popular. Samplitude/Sequoia from Magix is easier and more powerful and catching up. But there is still that large ProTools installed base. The marketplace is tough with lots of ear-biting and eye-gouging.
 

AlphaWorld

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They're not evil, but they're certainly not noble. The ideal software model (IMO, only) would be a program that costs somewhere around $100 and is updated for free with a few new features over some limited period, say 2 years. After that a new version would be released with existing users being offered an upgrade at something south of the purchase price.

Adobe has built themselves an empire and has somewhat of a captive audience, everyone else is an also-ran. While it's not a monopoly it absolutely allows them to set their own pricing without paying much attention to how competitive they are.

The old way Adobe PhotoShop worked was that you bought the initial package (pricing varied, but it was not cheap). About every three years they released an updated version, and you could buy it (in my country) for about $300, so it averaged about $100 / year, paid in lumps every three years or so. That might have come close to what you are asking for if you are in the US (I didn't bother tracking the US pricing for PhotoShop). There were some minor updates to the software, and of course the RAW updates for new cameras, but the big functionality came out with the new version every 3 years. It meant adjusting to a bunch of changes in a lump, so much so that there were books published covering all the changes from one version to the next.

When the subscription model arrived, I was dubious, and didn't buy in for a while. But I looked at the costing after a year, and realised that it cost about the same, but the new functionality came out at a more steady pace (easier to learn and adjust to), and the RAW updates were more frequent (I didn't need to wait as long for my new camera to be supported). It also meant I wasn't facing a big lump of a charge every 3 years.

I'm no Adobe apologist, and I resent some of their practices in other areas (I intensely dislike a couple of their other products), but I think the subscription for their photo tools is fine. I'd never buy the entire Creative Suite, so I can't comment on that.

It's interesting that there seem to be more competitors now - things like DxO PhotoLab, for example - which are using the previous Adobe pricing model. If you'd rather pay a lump every so often instead, they will happily take your money...
 
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Sergiobodyweb

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I have been very happy with DXO PhotoLab over the past couple of years; just recently updated to PhotoLab 5. The tools are intuitively laid out and I am able to do what I need and want without too much fuss or muss. I particularly like that the program, unlike Lightroom, does not take control of my images by establishing its own "catalog" and such. I can arrange my files and folders in the way that I choose on my computer.
Don't you find it extremely slow? I tried it for couple days and I have to give up.
Pass from one image to the other and open an image it takes seconds in a new Mac Book Pro with SSD, it's scary.
 

Sergiobodyweb

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I've been using Darktable for quite a while. Free, open source, incredibly powerful, plenty of support. There's a bit of a learning curve, but it's an extraordinary free program. It is updated once a year, although the last two years they've updated twice.

What doesn't it do? It doesn't do much in the way of editing, it's a processing program first. I recently purchased Affinity Photo for editing purposes. Of course it will process RAW as well, but I have Darktable down to several clicks and done. I would usually then save as a jpeg for posting or printing. If I want to do some editing, which is rare but happens occasionally (like maybe adding snow to a Christmas card), I will save as a TIF and open in Affinity.

Affinity is inexpensive ($54.00 US) and I am told that so far, every new release has been provided free to purchasers. People tell me they've never spent another penny. Unlike Luminar who consistently misrepresents their products and intentions to their customers. I almost bit once, a little research saved me from that nightmare.
Darktable, I'll try this today, thank you.

Actually, I'm trying to find a tool similar to Lightroom that is not Lightroom.

I tried :

- DXO PhotoLab 5, powerful, complete, but SLOOOOOOOOOW, to slow.
- Luminar, not bad, I may go back to this.
- Photo AI, missing catalog collections.

Next : Affinity Photo, Capture One.

Any other software to try that can replace Lighroom?
 

Clix Pix

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Don't you find it extremely slow? I tried it for couple days and I have to give up.
Pass from one image to the other and open an image it takes seconds in a new Mac Book Pro with SSD, it's scary.

Slow? No......not for me! In my 2018 Apple 15" MacBookPro [MBP] which has 1 TB SSD, 32 GB RAM, the extra graphics card (I forget what that is called now -- maybe Vega 20??), the DXO PhotoLab 5 program works very smoothly and quickly. No issues here. I also have an M1 13" MBP but haven't really used it all that much for processing images, and in fact haven't gotten around to updating it to PhotoLab 5 now that I think about it.
 
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Brownie

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Darktable, I'll try this today, thank you.

Actually, I'm trying to find a tool similar to Lightroom that is not Lightroom.

I tried :

- DXO PhotoLab 5, powerful, complete, but SLOOOOOOOOOW, to slow.
- Luminar, not bad, I may go back to this.
- Photo AI, missing catalog collections.

Next : Affinity Photo, Capture One.

Any other software to try that can replace Lighroom?
Do some searches on Luminar and their business practices before you spend money on them. There is one somewhere in here, plus all over the web.

Affinity is pretty decent and inexpensive.
 

pointreyes

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I use Capture One Pro and Adobe photo - C1 cost me more per year than Adobe. I pay annually for Adobe which is $108. Why both? Because I find the tools I use within this software too useful to give up just yet. I mainly use C1 until I need to use PS. As for the catalog in LR, you don't have to use it. Open the raw file in PS which will open ACR - ACR is LR except you don't have the catalog to deal with.

I never ingest my raw files into a photo editor, I use Photo Mechanic or FastRawViewer and only edit the files I want. I use sessions in C1 and just manage the files I work with in the session. Whenever, I want to look back I just open the session - can keep it stored on backup and bring it back to the main computer for when I might need it.

Which reminds me, it is the last day of the month - time to do my monthly backup of backups backup process. šŸ„“šŸ„“šŸ„“
 

Sergiobodyweb

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Slow? No......not for me! In my 2018 Apple 15" MacBookPro [MBP] which has 1 TB SSD, 32 GB RAM, the extra graphics card (I forget what that is called now -- maybe Vega 20??), the DXO PhotoLab 5 program works very smoothly and quickly. No issues here. I also have an M1 13" MBP but haven't really used it all that much for processing images, and in fact haven't gotten around to updating it to PhotoLab 5 now that I think about it.
Excuse me, just to be sure we are talking about the same subject, can you preview and open your pictures in less than 3-4 seconds?
It takes 13 seconds to visualize a new image once I clicked on it :(
Needless to say, if I want to see 5 images, only look at them, it takes me a whole minute.

MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019)
2,3 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9
16 GB 2667 MHz DDR4
AMD Radeon Pro 5500M 4 GB
 

Clix Pix

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Well, I don't keep a stopwatch around to check to see how quickly my images open but definitely it doesn't take all that long, certainly not 13 seconds or longer..... My machine is only a year older than yours and looking at your specs I note that you've only got 16 GB RAM, which may be a contributing factor, and it looks as though you've got just the standard graphics, not the extra VEGA as well? Those two things may make a difference, I really don't know.
 
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Brownie

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Well, I don't keep a stopwatch around to check to see how quickly my images open but definitely it doesn't take all that long, certainly not 13 seconds or longer..... My machine is only a year older than yours and looking at your specs I note that you've only got 16 GB RAM, which may be a contributing factor, and it looks as though you've got just the standard graphics, not the extra VEGA as well? Those two things may make a difference, I really don't know.
The graphics card will make all the difference in the world.
 

Sergiobodyweb

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The graphics card will make all the difference in the world.
Only to preview an image? Not talking about image modification, that's fast.
Come on, this is a +$3k laptop and it can't load a picture?

Why is it loaded in a fraction of a second if I open the image with Mac viewer, Capture One, Photoshop or Lightroom?

Probably the preview system in DxO Photolab is not so good. If you google it seems a common problem.
 
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