Dynamic range thoughts on one, new sensors come along but has dynamic range improved really that much?

[spudhead]

ok thoughts on dynamic range has it improved that much really with the newer sensors? I still find myself adjusting a lot for highlight and shadows, and yes there are ways around it but to help, what do think?

 

[spudhead]

Describe 'new'? Anything from the A7 and newer" A7 II? III?

Sensor technology has come far enough that it's unlikely we'll see huge steps forward like we used to. It's more probable we'll see better computational aids to correct higher DR shots.

You decide I have only the a7iii and a9mk1 but it seems to me even looking at newer sensors there is not much improvement

 

[FowlersFreeTime]

RAW files look the same, yet... and it could be my imagination, but I feel like I have been able to manipulate the highlights slider to recover more detail with my a6700 photos. That's a feature of dynamic range too, right?

 

[spudhead]

Here is every A7, A7R (except the II), A9, and the A1. The worst at Base ISO is the A9, the best is the A7R V at about 1-1/2 stops better. Once you get to ISO 1600 the A9 has an extremely slight edge and the A7R V drops. The only worse cameras at higher ISO are the A7 and A7II.

It's hard to see all the differences with this many cameras on the list. You can add and subtract almost any model you want here:
https://www.photonstophotos.net/

View attachment 53483

Thanks I knew you would have a nice chart for us to view Tim

 

[spudhead]

Thanks I knew you would have a nice chart for us to view Tim

I don`t think this is something lots of people think about

 

[spudhead]

Well since you asked so politely:

Here''s your A77 compared to Chris' A6700. I'd say that's a pretty decent gain in DR.

View attachment 53484

yep for sure but how much more will sensors improve, I don`t think much?

 

[spudhead]

RAW files look the same, yet... and it could be my imagination, but I feel like I have been able to manipulate the highlights slider to recover more detail with my a6700 photos. That's a feature of dynamic range too, right?

It is good you see a plus to the new camera in fact I am sure you have mentioned several plus points for the buy Chris

 

[spudhead]

For the a9iii is starting from a worse place that was the first thing I saw in the specs 250 base iso

 

[Paul stuart]

well all things considered actual sensor iq has not improved since a7r2/r3/a73 ,ok we have more mp ,faster readout sensors but the core dynamic range and iso perfomance has to be honest not improved ,go to any sensor test bill claff photons to photos or dxo and basically all latest cameras struggle to beat a ageing 10 year + sensors ,expect the a9.3 has issues in iq it is just the way a global sensor works as it only uses half of the pixel to capture light ,so expect apsc type performance ,same with stacked sensors they have a slight penalty also compared to non stacked sensors ,they also have a different filter on sensor so you get a slightly sharper image also for pixel peepers and then you have other anomolies such as compressed raw and non compressed that can effect ultimate iq ,but for daytime shooting and getting your exposure right all the sony sensors will give great reproduction ,really a lens will have have a greater influence ,on iq and output

 

[Paul stuart]

For the a9iii is starting from a worse place that was the first thing I saw in the specs 250 base iso

becuase each pixel is only collecting half of the light ,it is how a global shutter works ,half of each pixel is basically not working like a standard bayer sensor

 

[Paul stuart]

This explains it you basically need a photodiode to store ,which means it is not collecting the light ,https://amateurphotographer.com/latest/opinion/how-does-the-sony-a9-iii-global-shutter-work/

 

[spudhead]

becuase each pixel is only collecting half of the light ,it is how a global shutter works ,half of each pixel is basically not working like a standard bayer sensor

So will you be buying one Paul?

This explains it you basically need a photodiode to store ,which means it is not collecting the light ,https://amateurphotographer.com/latest/opinion/how-does-the-sony-a9-iii-global-shutter-work/

Dont need it explained thanks, I am not a customer for this evolution, my son offered to pick one up today while Singapore and even tested it with the 300 2.8 e-mount

 

[AlphaWorld]

Here is every A7, A7R (except the II), A9, and the A1. The worst at Base ISO is the A9, the best is the A7R V at about 1-1/2 stops better. Once you get to ISO 1600 the A9 has an extremely slight edge and the A7R V drops. The only worse cameras at higher ISO are the A7 and A7II.

It's hard to see all the differences with this many cameras on the list. You can add and subtract almost any model you want here:
https://www.photonstophotos.net/

View attachment 53483

DPReview just published their (preliminary) findings on the A9III - it provides an interesting input to this discussion. It also mentions something I hadn't heard before - that its electron capacity is halved because there are two electron wells at each point on the sensor (part of the global shutter design).

As I interpret what they have said, the A9III is on-par with the other A9 models at its base ISO, but its base ISO is 250. So you won't see the dynamic range that other cameras have at ISO 100 - it doesn't do ISO 100 (ignore the "extended ISO" at 125 - that's not real). And it pretty much stays on par with the other A9s as ISO increases. Added to the chart above, its line would start at 250, but pretty much follow the others.

So the mutterings from the naysayers about "oh, it must have terrible dynamic range because Sony hasn't said anything about it" appear to hold little truth. Yes, its base ISO dynamic range is lower, but that's hardly surprising with a base ISO of 250. Once you are at ISO 250 or above, it's pretty much the same. Guess we are still waiting for the full details, but sounds promising.

 

[Paul stuart]

So will you be buying one Paul?

Dont need it explained thanks, I am not a customer for this evolution, my son offered to pick one up today while Singapore and even tested it with the 300 2.8 e-mount

No megapixels wins the race for me ,it just more ambiguous ,the a9.3 is a tech marvel and opens up new possibilitys for the future ,but much like the original a9 it never matched the a7r series for ultimate iq ,and stacked sensors really do what most folk want with out much of a loss ,but the camera has other improvements best single grip in mirrorless world ,best evf ,best rear tilt screen ,best implementation of pro capture on 35mm format ,and the video aspects are going to very good with no rolling shutter ,flash sync is masterful ,and event shooting with mixed lights will be a lot easier .But i can not spend 6k on a camera with apsc type performance in iq.

 

[spudhead]

No megapixels wins the race for me ,it just more ambiguous ,the a9.3 is a tech marvel and opens up new possibilitys for the future ,but much like the original a9 it never matched the a7r series for ultimate iq ,and stacked sensors really do what most folk want with out much of a loss ,but the camera has other improvements best single grip in mirrorless world ,best evf ,best rear tilt screen ,best implementation of pro capture on 35mm format ,and the video aspects are going to very good with no rolling shutter ,flash sync is masterful ,and event shooting with mixed lights will be a lot easier .But i can not spend 6k on a camera with apsc type performance in iq.

Yep similar view here Paul it seems a bit niche for most

 

[AlphaWorld]

No megapixels wins the race for me ,it just more ambiguous ,the a9.3 is a tech marvel and opens up new possibilitys for the future ,but much like the original a9 it never matched the a7r series for ultimate iq ,and stacked sensors really do what most folk want with out much of a loss ,but the camera has other improvements best single grip in mirrorless world ,best evf ,best rear tilt screen ,best implementation of pro capture on 35mm format ,and the video aspects are going to very good with no rolling shutter ,flash sync is masterful ,and event shooting with mixed lights will be a lot easier .But i can not spend 6k on a camera with apsc type performance in iq.

Bear in mind that the A9 line (including the A9 III) has an AA filter in front of the sensor - guessing Sony's engineers think 24 Mp is too few to do away with the AA. The A7R line does not have an AA filter - that makes a noticeable difference. I'm pretty much convinced that the AA filter has no place on any sensor 36Mp or above, but 24Mp does fall below that threshold.

 

[Paul stuart]

Bear in mind that the A9 line (including the A9 III) has an AA filter in front of the sensor - guessing Sony's engineers think 24 Mp is too few to do away with the AA. The A7R line does not have an AA filter - that makes a noticeable difference. I'm pretty much convinced that the AA filter has no place on any sensor 36Mp or above, but 24Mp does fall below that threshold.

what about the a74 and a7c2

 

[iamdlewis]

Bear in mind that the A9 line (including the A9 III) has an AA filter in front of the sensor - guessing Sony's engineers think 24 Mp is too few to do away with the AA. The A7R line does not have an AA filter - that makes a noticeable difference. I'm pretty much convinced that the AA filter has no place on any sensor 36Mp or above, but 24Mp does fall below that threshold.

The A9 line is the only line with AA filter or as Sony calls it "OPTICAL LOW-PASS FILTER".

 

[AlphaWorld]

The A9 line is the only line with AA filter or as Sony calls it "OPTICAL LOW-PASS FILTER".

Optical Low Pass filter doesn't seem like an appropriate name for an Anti-Aliasing filter.

I'd have thought an Optical Low Pass filter would be filtering out ultraviolet (as a higher frequency than visible light). I can imagine them putting that over the sensor, and incorporating an AA filter into it, or as two more layers in the stack over the sensor.

 

[liggy]

I don't think there will be a huge increase in DR until organic sensors become a thing.

Software is getting so good now that it really isn't that big a deal to me anymore.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

organic sensors

And then vegan sensors, I suppose?

 

[liggy]

And then vegan sensors, I suppose?

lol... recyclable too.

I don't think we'll see the organic sensors anytime soon. Fuji/Panasonic have been working on them for over a decade. Huge amount of promise but it seems they are facing some challenges making it really work.

Panasonic Unveils Organic CMOS Sensors with Global Shutter and 100x Sensitivity

Panasonic today announced a trio of new CMOS sensors that offer extreme dynamic range, incredible light sensitivity, and a global shutter. 100x Wider

petapixel.com

Panasonic's Decade-Old Organic CMOS Sensor is Still Years Away

Stuck in the Phantom Zone.

petapixel.com

 

[liggy]

Then again, no one thought the global shutter was this close. Hard to say what's up their collective sleeves, and they aren't going to release any more information than they have to.

Fair point but global shutters have been in use for industrial applications for a while now and I'm not aware of any widespread utilization of organic sensor applications yet.

In a roundabout way it's why I'm so bullish on the Apple Vision Pro. I don't think it'll be an instant hit for consumer use but IMO the enterprise potential is ginormous.

 

[liggy]

Can't argue that. I tend to believe releases on these kinds of breakthroughs are pre-planned. Or, if Panasonic is farther along with the organic sensor that they want to admit (and I'll be they are), the global shutter would be just the kind of thing to elicit a response from a competitor.

Honestly aside from video centric and legacy users I can't figure out why anyone would buy Panasonic at this stage of the game.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to them down the road. Fuji has a robust medical imaging business where an organic sensor can be utilized. They also own some interesting stem cell patents relating to treating retinal diseases and Nikon does too.

I'm unaware of anything like that in the Panasonic world.

 

[liggy]

They're still the biggest seller of video overall.

Panasonic dwarfs both Nikon and Fuji. They're one of the largest producers of consumer electronics, much the same as Sony. They do homes, aviation, mobile communications. I don't think they much care what Fuji and Nikon are into.

I was referring to Panasonic cameras, not the entire company.

Tech from medical imaging makes its way into consumer goods which is why I mentioned the retinal imaging and patents of Nikon and Fuji.

I worked for a German retinal imaging company that has had a cSLO camera with pre-capture for nearly 20 years now. Very cool tech and useful for real time imaging in the same way it would be handy for BIF photography. I hope to have it one day on my A1 a la Olympus who coincidentally has a very strong medical imaging business.

 

[liggy]

Unless I am misunderstanding, if you look at who's producing sensors, neither Fuji nor Nikon even make the list. Panasonic is a much larger company overall and has their hands in many things.

View attachment 53601

This link takes you to their medical stuff, which includes sensor development.

Medical Solutions

Whether designing for healthcare, clinical or diagnostic purposes, Panasonic offers products for most medical application requirements. Our Electronic Components, Batteries, and Devices for medical technology applications are used in products ranging from large equipment to small portable devices.

na.industrial.panasonic.com

Not sure what your chart references but a wild guess is that it includes phones. Not seeing any Panasonic medical imaging products though. Interesting regardless.

I’m not saying that Panasonic isn’t a big company. I simply don’t see why anyone would choose their photography gear over Sony et al unless they have a strong need for video or have legacy glass.

i hope they are able to make the organic camera sensor work because that imo is the tech for next level DR improvement.

 

[liggy]

Click the medical solutions link. It takes you directly to the Panasonic medical and industrial page. There's a photo with a link to their sensors.

I did. Saw mostly batteries and no references to any kind of imaging that might remotely be useful to photographers. An 8x8 infrared sensor is all I can suss from their page.

 

[AlphaWorld]

Unless I am misunderstanding, if you look at who's producing sensors, neither Fuji nor Nikon even make the list. Panasonic is a much larger company overall and has their hands in many things.

View attachment 53601

This link takes you to their medical stuff, which includes sensor development.

Medical Solutions

Whether designing for healthcare, clinical or diagnostic purposes, Panasonic offers products for most medical application requirements. Our Electronic Components, Batteries, and Devices for medical technology applications are used in products ranging from large equipment to small portable devices.

na.industrial.panasonic.com

So the major maker of sensors is Sony, followed by at least 7 companies who don’t make cameras (any more - Samsung did for a while), with Canon equal to two others who don’t make cameras.

Yeah, I think this probably does include phone camera sensors. Would be interesting yo see the same chart for purely camera sensors.