Grey Imports

[Brownie]

Roger Cicala at LensRentals has written a lot about using lens filters as protection, and has argued both sides of the case. He has crates of front elements they have had to replace, and he points out that sometimes the front element replacement can be a third of the price of a new lens (or more). He has demonstrated that using a cheap filter can be a terrible choice (some of them do terrible things to image quality). He even measured the transmissivity (I think that's the word) of a whole range of filters.

In film days, using a UV or Skylight or Haze filter made sense - UV could fog your fim. No sense for digital because UV has no effect on a digital sensor. So the smart choice, if you are using digital, is to go for a purpose-made protective filter - they use hardened glass or even transparent ceramic. Worth using if a $100 or $200 protective filter can save you replacing a $1500 front group, especially if you are going to be shooting in an environment with wind blown abrasive material (like a beach with fine sand, or a salt lake, or some industrial sites like a place working on manufactured stone).

For what it's worth, I don't use protective filters these days, but I do use the lens hoods all the time, and that has saved my lens once already. If I were thinking of shooting on a beach, though, I'd think about a filter.

LOL. Two words: Drag Strip.

Still never had a problem, won't use one. Hood only except for that infernal polarizer.

 

[Paul stuart]

But not only do you pay more, but if you do need help you get to struggle through Sony's warranty, while Panamoz is 3-years and no hassles. Panamoz wins.

not if i am trading in a lens or body , items are better bought in store for obvious reasons ,not sure i ever have had to use a a warranty either ,i still rate panamoz as the best grey import firm,i just like my local camera store more for some items ,

 

[Brownie]

not if i am trading in a lens or body , items are better bought in store for obvious reasons ,not sure i ever have had to use a a warranty either ,i still rate panamoz as the best grey import firm,i just like my local camera store more for some items ,

I have supported my local camera store for years and year and have friends working there. I saved a total of $1700 US by using Panamoz.

If there's a warranty issue at my local store, I have to send it back to Sony, or if its new enough maybe they'll send it back for me. If there's a warranty issue with Panamoz, I send it where they tell me (Or I tell them, my choice) and they fix it. Other than the goodwill by shopping locally, there really isn't any difference.

For trades, I rarely get from the local store what KEH/MPB et al will give. The local store doesn't have as large an audience, even with a website. I have done it, but only if I'm looking for a direct trade.

 

[Astacus]

Hi Robert,

Not sure what is going on there.

If you go to this page https://services.sony.co.uk/supportMVC/en/BookService

Enter your model and serial number as if you are going to book in a repair if its a grey market item it will not recognise the number.

Its the serial number on the camera body you need to enter.

Hope that helps.

Angus.

Final Update
mpb immediately agreed that something is fishy here - suspect they got taken for a ride!
Full refund, arranged collection, and even refunded the expedited shipping I had paid.

My faith in mpb has remained. I think that have excellent sutomer service, and seem to act properly.

I now have all funds in my bank account, and am back to deciding on my best strategy.

But zero complaints about mpb (nor do I have connection to them).

 

[Brownie]

Final Update
mpb immediately agreed that something is fishy here - suspect they got taken for a ride!
Full refund, arranged collection, and even refunded the expedited shipping I had paid.

My faith in mpb has remained. I think that have excellent sutomer service, and seem to act properly.

I now have all funds in my bank account, and am back to deciding on my best strategy.

But zero complaints about mpb (nor do I have connection to them).

Congrats, glad to hear it worked out!

This is kind of similar to my lens experience. And, I had forgotten about a Sony SLT-65 I bought from them a few years back with a piece of SD card jammed in the slot. I had to fish it out with a large needle bent at the tip so it would dig into the plastic. While they did step up and do the right thing, it's obvious these things snuck through their QC staff. Up until that point there had never been a problem.

In my mind, I blame this on the huge turnover of employees that most companies experienced during COVID. I believe that like many other places they lost a lot of good people and they're now relying on people with less experience (and perhaps maturity) to run their operation. I do hope this evens itself out, because doing the right thing to address a failure only goes so far, it should not repeat. At some point you need to reduce or eliminate the failure before it gets to your customers.

 

[amcluesent]

I bought my A7RV as a grey import via Cotswold Cameras, excellent £ saving of course. It took the firmware update to 2.02 that came out a few days after the camera was delivered by courier, so hasn't been 'black listed' by Sony for basic support.

 

[AlphaWorld]

I bought my A7RV as a grey import via Cotswold Cameras, excellent £ saving of course. It took the firmware update to 2.02 that came out a few days after the camera was delivered by courier, so hasn't been 'black listed' by Sony for basic support.

I think the firmware updates are the same world-wide - they aren't locked by country.

It's warranty repairs that's the issue with grey imports. Part of the price in the country is to pay for the warranty support in the country. If the camera was "bought" in another country (by the grey marketeer), that's where warranty support is available.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Part of the price in the country is to pay for the warranty support in the country.

They could just as easily apply this worldwide: part of the price is to pay for the warranty. One way or another, locally or internationally, it is an expense against the profits.

The main reason that they do it is not accounting for warranty expenses: it is because they have differential pricing. If there were no way to dissuade the customer from buying somewhere cheaper, direct or through grey imports, their differential pricing would take a hit. That could cost them a lot more than the occasional repair being charged against a "wrong" country.

(Last time I looked, I could buy Sony camera gear somewhat cheaper here than in UK, so perhaps I benefit from differential pricing! I'm not complaining too loudly!)

 

[Unframed Dave]

The value of the yen relative to the country of origin is relevant. I'm told prices in Australia are quite favourable currently.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The value of the yen

Yes, true. Exchange rates do play their part, as do the import duties of different nations. I mustn't only blame Sony!

 

[AlphaWorld]

They could just as easily apply this worldwide: part of the price is to pay for the warranty. One way or another, locally or internationally, it is an expense against the profits.

The main reason that they do it is not accounting for warranty expenses: it is because they have differential pricing. If there were no way to dissuade the customer from buying somewhere cheaper, direct or through grey imports, their differential pricing would take a hit. That could cost them a lot more than the occasional repair being charged against a "wrong" country.

(Last time I looked, I could buy Sony camera gear somewhat cheaper here than in UK, so perhaps I benefit from differential pricing! I'm not complaining too loudly!)

Each country has its own Sony company, and it's that company which bears the cost of warranty repairs, and has to account for things like the cost of bringing cameras and spare parts into the country (stuff likes local taxes, etc), and the cost of labour in that country - either the cost of employing people to do the repairs, or the cost of hiring the repair work out to a third party. It's perfectly normal business practice to do all that accounting inside the local company (there may be countries which are handled by a Sony company in another country, but I don't know of one).

Handling it globally would be more complicated (exchange rates, local laws, etc).

This is how multi-national companies work. It's not just Sony - I know Canon and Nikon work the same way (I don't know if other camera companies are different). And it's not just cameras, either. Lots of other industries work the same way - it's all part of multinational company behaviour.

I'm not going to explain all the details of why the grey market exists - you can find out more about it if you Google for it - but sometimes the grey market products are the same as in other countries, and sometimes they are not - one example is the lack of an NTSC / PAL switch on some grey market products - the market they were made for uses one of those two, and in an attempt to discourage grey marketing of the cameras outside that market, they maker removes the ability to switch. Another example is cameras which only operate is a limited number of languages - I believe Sony restricts some cameras to Japanese so they can sell cameras inside Japan at a somewhat lower price without supplying grey market buyers. I think it's nice that Sony offers something of a discount to the people in their home country.

All up, I think it might be possible for a company like Sony to eliminate the grey market opportunity, but it would be by raising the prices of their products to the highest price charged anywhere in the world - no local country discounts. They could offer a global warranty, but we'd all be paying more (except for people living in the country that was already paying the most, perhaps, but perhaps not - the costs of managing things on a global basis would likely be higher). They would sell fewer cameras, and a lot of price-sensitive people would go to other companies.

I hope they don't do that.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

It's perfectly normal business practice

Covers a multitude of sins. And does not negate the assertion that Sony (and others) want to maintain differentials (subject to my previous post).

I know they are not unique, but I was aware of this with Sony long before I had anything to do with their cameras.

Call me an idealist, but hey, I'm just a customer. Worldwide company should offer worldwide service. Whilst, at the same time, protecting its various interests in so far as it can.

It's the way it is is not an answer. The way it is is entirely up to them.

I have no current plans to take my Sony gear out of the country in which I bought it. Grey market is available here too, but we do not have the luxury of dealers offering a warranty which may be even better than Sony's own. Given that, for me to buy grey here, I would regard it same as buying used, and the price would have to be commensurate. Some of my gear is second-hand, but, currently, none of it is grey.

 

[AlphaWorld]

Covers a multitude of sins. And does not negate the assertion that Sony (and others) want to maintain differentials (subject to my previous post).

I know they are not unique, but I was aware of this with Sony long before I had anything to do with their cameras.

Call me an idealist, but hey, I'm just a customer. Worldwide company should offer worldwide service. Whilst, at the same time, protecting its various interests in so far as it can.

It's the way it is is not an answer. The way it is is entirely up to them.

I have no current plans to take my Sony gear out of the country in which I bought it. Grey market is available here too, but we do not have the luxury of dealers offering a warranty which may be even better than Sony's own. Given that, for me to buy grey here, I would regard it same as buying used, and the price would have to be commensurate. Some of my gear is second-hand, but, currently, none of it is grey.

I already said you could get a world-wide warranty, but it would mean we'd all be paying more - is that what you want?

So I'm not saying "it's the way it is" - I'm saying it would be more expensive to do it the way you want. Not just for you, but for everyone. I'm not so keen to be paying more for your idealism.

 

[Unframed Dave]

At the end of the day, it comes down to user choice. Me, I'm a sucker for good value. That and I've owned, probably around fifty modern photography lenses and cameras in the last twenty years. Not a single fault that I can remember that would have been covered by warranty.

I tell a lie, I bought an underwater olympus miu that had a foggy screen. I took it back to the jessops store to be told, it was normal as it had been underwater. I asked to speak to someone who spoke sense and got a replacement.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I already said

You described the economic model as you see it, and as you accept it. I'm not saying it isn't that way, but one has to take into account the subjective too. Economics is not a hard science. Part of my subjective view point is that companies will always do what benefits them. Necessarily: it is their purpose to make profit. But there are swings and balances.