Opinions on best dot sight for BIF

[garuda]

I just now discovered the existence of sights for cameras mentioned by Tim.

What is best dot sight for hot shoe mount on a7R iv? I've read that those with a large viewing area are best for BIF. Found these two on Amazon. Opinions for either of these two listed below, or any others that may be better and why?

 

[Spiderx1]

Do you have an adapter in mind?? Most of them mount on a Picatinny Rail. Great idea plus you can use on your AR if you don’t want on your A7R. I have considered similar type items for quick shooting in sports, but had not thought of Red Dot Style sight.

 

[garuda]

I saw that Tim mentioned this Dot Sight on the BIF thread, and until then I thought they were useful for firearms only. But Tim said he uses it for spotting, likely when using 600mm for long shots. Question is, at 600 when bird is on Red dot, do you lose frame by the time your eye moves down to the EVF? Slight movements can lose target from frame. I wonder how useful it really is.

Hot shoe Rails are on Amazon also. I assume the mounting groove size is standard for all sights?

 

[Spiderx1]

Yes there is a standard, I guess deprnds on how much you are willing to crop in post. Would provide an middle solution from shooting from the hip and evf. I will probably give it a shot. So to speakz.

 

[Spiderx1]

Also consider that your rail should be as long as possible. The eye relief distance is probably 12-30 inches.

 

[garuda]

Yes there is a standard, I guess deprnds on how much you are willing to crop in post......

I'm confused. Not sure we are on the same page. See my original post below:

..... Hot shoe Rails are on Amazon also. I assume the mounting groove size is standard for all sights?

The "standard" I meant was the groove "size" of the adapter (Rail) you were asking about. That is, whether an adapter will fit all models of Dot Sights. I'm confused about what "cropping" you're referring to (regarding sight or adapter).

Did you mean: whether to use the sight or not — depends on how much cropping I'm willing to do?

 

[garuda]

Also consider that your rail should be as long as possible. The eye relief distance is probably 12-30 inches.

Are you saying that mounted on hot shoe, the eye must be 12+ inches behind the sight? My biggest concern is: After red dot is on bird, will then moving your eye to the EVF likely move bird out of the EVF framing from camera movement. Since you can't view the sight image and the EVF image simultaneously.

There hasn't been much chatter on forum about Dot Sights, so I question if many BIF shooters use them.

 

[Spiderx1]

By cropping I was really referring to how zoomed in you are to the bird in flight. With the sight I am assuming you could be zoomed in more. If were zoomed out to a wider fov then you could accomplish the same but have to crop more.

 

[Spiderx1]

Are you saying that mounted on hot shoe, the eye must be 12+ inches behind the sight? My biggest concern is: After red dot is on bird, will then moving your eye to the EVF likely move bird out of the EVF framing from camera movement. Since you can't view the sight image and the EVF image simultaneously.

There hasn't been much chatter on forum about Dot Sights, so I question if many BIF shooters use them.

These sights are designed for rifle / pistol shooters. Which means the eye distance would be away from the camera by 12-30 inches. I have never tried one so really don't know. Heck I ordered one to try. I watched a YouTube video on some birders using one. He held the camera away from his face to aim. So yes then moving to EVF would be difficult. He was using the sight in combo with the rear screen which I never use.

 

[spudhead]

I have the olympus dot sight but so far not tested , just mounted on a9 and dialed in ok. Ok on a7 3 but not able to setup on a99ii. I think the olympus dot sight is the one Tim uses

 

[Jeff A]

Interesting conversation here. I own three Red Dot sights that are mounted on three different Firearms, one of those Red Dots is a conventional tube type sight, the other two are Holographic or Reflex types as shown in this thread. The first thing that hit me when reading about this is that I have never heard of any of the Brand names mentioned here. That's a Red Flag for me. Looking at the pricing of these units on Amazon, we are talking about a completely different pricing structure than the items I use, which are usually in the $200-$400 range. I think the quality needed in this application would be greatly different as there is no recoil involved. I have seen more than a few Optics like this in the $100 range fail almost immediately when used on a low recoiling Firearm, like a 22 caliber rimfire. One of my Red Dots is mounted on a 45 caliber, Semi-Automatic Pistol. That Optic cost around $400. It has never failed. After me expending all of these words, I guess I would say, be careful. Like anything else, you get what you pay for.

 

[garuda]

After research & a few videos, I now know how they work. For me, bad idea. I'm not using the DotSight as a target acquisition optic, but rather the EVF for that always, Because the info I need is in the display in EVF. Initially considering the DotSight was that I just wanted a proximity-finder when @ 600m in order to get bird into the focus-area of EVF, instead of guessing where the bird/skydiver is in sky. Since AF doesn't work until the target is in the focus area, there's a lot of sky area to cover at 600m and trying to locate the target quickly.

I going simple w no optics at all. I'm gluing an orange bead to top of lens hood, and mounting a calibrated cross-hair or circle on the hot shoe to find proximity to get bird registered in EVF. And since this config is so close to the EVF, the eyeball transition from hotshoe to EVF is nearby and quick. Then I use EVF as usual. According to video examples -- if you use Dot sight only (instead EVF), how would you know when AF lock occurs? Or if you suddenly lose lock? Even w focus priority (vs release) enabled, there's no guarantee a lock has occurred (even in "sticky" mode). And flex-small-ctr is unavailable w/o the EVF use. Optic Dot sight is off the table for me.

 

[Tim Mayo]

I use the Olympus EE-1 Dot Sight to help find and track birds at 600mm and longer. I find it works great and I can still check if it's locked on to the subject by viewing the display. It's probably 95% accurate if there is nothing else in the sky, but if there are multiple birdies and you want to track a specific one then it will be tricky. It doesn't clamp down as tightly as I would like in the hotshoe though, and it will move if you knock it. This is a good video on how it works:

 

[garuda]

I use the Olympus EE-1 Dot Sight to help find and track birds at 600mm and longer. I find it works great and I can still check if it's locked on to the subject by viewing the display.

Tim, I so used to EVF, I forgot about the LED monitor. Which obviously works since w these Dot sights, you must hold Sight/camera some distance from your eye. Which begs question: how many inches is your eye from the hotshoe/sight?

The other issue I have is that it's hard to see/read LED monitor when sun is bright; too much reflection, etc.

Key question: if Sight is mounted 4-5 inches forward (in front) of the hot-shoe — can I keep my eye extremely close and slightly above the EVF while using D-Sight to aim to capture bird in EVF, and then move my eye ever-so-slightly to the EVF cup. In other words, I just want to use Sight to get bird located in the EVF, then use only the EVF for AF and tracking.

I need the sight ONLY to get bird into EVF. Because until the bird is contained in the EVF, pressing the AF-ON button will not function. So you can be scanning sky w only the EVF and pass right over bird and not see it because AF hasn't yet distinguished an object being these. Hence, the sight used to get close, then EVF to take over AF/tracking. But my eye must be close to EVF while using D-Sight, or camera moves too much w eye transitioning from Sight to EVF, so you lose the bird or skydiver. Hoping I'm not making this too complicated, but can't a video or pic showing the person using the sight real-time,

 

[Tim Mayo]

I probably hold the camera so that the sight is around 4-5 inches from my eyes so it's easy to glance down at the LCD. If you change the brightness of the LCD to sunny weather mode then you shouldn't have too many problems in bright sunlight.

Even with the sight mounted to the hotshoe you can still use the EVF if you want to, it won't get in the way. So yes you could use the sight to find the bird in the sky then simply move your eye to the EVF for tracking without any trouble.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but this guy shows it in use: https://youtu.be/HWxWYBPitBU?t=264 and also the video above if you jump to 198.

You can basically hold it as close or as far from your eye as you would like, of course the closer you are the more stability you will have.

It might be worth trying your method of mounting a bead and cross hair first, as this would be cheaper if it works and you won't need to concern yourself with changing the battery in the dot sight. I find it typically lasts around 5-6 hours tops.

 

[garuda]

Thanks Tim for detailed explanation. I'll try the orange bead/circle config first. Then if necessary I'll try DotSight. I became reluctant earlier upon reading another post stating the eye must be quite far from the DotSight, so that eliminated my using EVF. But you clarified that well, thanks. And the battery life was surprisingly short and good to know in advance.

That last video you mentioned is excellent! Thanks.

 

[Spiderx1]

Well I got my Red Dot style sight setup, working well but some patience to set up, simple but sensitive. Remember if you are using one designed for firearms the move right / left or up down are for point of impact and generally need to be moved opposite. So to move dot left you move adjustment the direction that will say left. Using EVF in conjunction with the sight is not easy, generally you will hold camera away from body 18” and sight with dot. Soooo composition is difficult to check. Focus area is hard to check. Useful but not magic.

 

[Spiderx1]

So the videos from tim are pretty much right on.

 

[garuda]

I tried my orange bead gun-sight on Riv and 135 GM, and it turned out perfect the first time. Really fast and easy. It looks rudimentary but it is dead-eye accurate. I first place bead at top of hot shoe insert then superimpose it on target (just like a gun sight). Then I press-hold the AF-ON button and look into EVF. The flex-sm-ctr box is spot-on the target and tracks fine. Amazing, the first time, needed no alignment adjustment, and works for the smallest of targets. I haven't setup the 200-600 the same way yet, but suspect that will take more adjustment. I'll let you guys know later.

And thanks Tim for mentioning your's on a thread, else I never would have thought to do this orange bead config.

 

[garuda]

Well I got my Red Dot style sight setup, working well but some patience to set up, simple but sensitive. Remember if you are using one designed for firearms the move right / left or up down are for point of impact and generally need to be moved opposite. So to move dot left you move adjustment the direction that will say left. Using EVF in conjunction with the sight is not easy, generally you will hold camera away from body 18” and sight with dot. Soooo composition is difficult to check. Focus area is hard to check. Useful but not magic.

Actually I found the gunsight-to-EVF transition much easier than I once expected and here's why. With my eye very close to the EVF while lined up with the hot shoe sight, when bead is on target, I press the AF-ON button which locks-on even before I move my eye a half-inch to the EVF. I then verify the lock and adjust the composition/framing.

Way, way easier than I thought initially --- since my eye is so very near the EVF when sighting over the hot shoe. The closer your eye, Randy, is to the EVF, the easier it gets to compose if you press/hold the AF-ON while using gun sight. Try it w your Sight and let me know how it works for you.

 

[Spiderx1]

Will do thanks, in sports I had been sighting over hot shoe and hood just never thought of something as simple as the bead. BTW if anyone can 3D CAD draw I have an advanced SLA printer. Perhaps an insert for the hot shoe?

 

[garuda]

....... BTW if anyone can 3D CAD draw I have an advanced SLA printer. Perhaps an insert for the hot shoe?

Hey Randy, that's' a good idea! But now you gave me another idea. Another project maybe even simpler than the 3D printer, though that's a good idea. I'll post my new solution here when completed (if it works)

 

[Spiderx1]

Sounds good. Look forward to it. Anything to allow easier use of the evf. I rarely use the rear lcd display. Ever consider the use of a straw type tube? It would have to be maybe 1 inch long. Although there is the issue of alignment. By giving it a little depth it forces you to get your head directly behind camera. That is what I like about the red dot style, if you are off center but can see the reticle it does not matter.

 

[garuda]

..... Ever consider the use of a straw type tube? .... maybe 1 inch long.....

.
That's another good idea. I didn't think of that. I'm going to try that too using a small carbon fiber tube. Finding the right functional length will be the trick. The advantage (w tube) being you can also see the sky area around the outside of tube to better zero-in on the target. That has the same advantage as the open-V rear sight for finding targets fast.

The other trick is making it small, solid, and unobtrusive so as not to be prone to hitting it when handling camera. And it has to be removable for when using a flash (as I often do).

Also, I may send you a CAD, what state do you live?

 

[Spiderx1]

Sure send it. I live in Georgia just south of Atlanta. Spiderx1@yahoo If it’s something to be printed it is better if you can send as a fusion 360 file plus an stl or obj file. Those go straight to printer. My CAD skils are minimal at best. Also for tubes I have an abundant supply of carbon arrow shafts that are cut into or can be cut into pieces.

 

[garuda]

Let me first see how well a prototype tube works (and other options), before proceeding. Thanks

 

[Spiderx1]

So far the biggest problem is the shoe adapter is not tight enough to prevent left right movement, even with the knob as tight as it will go. So if you bump the sight it moves left or right. As a work around I twist the sight slightly so the shoe adapter is bumped up against the wall. Then I can just twist slightly to realign. Anybody have an idea on getting a better fit. I also have the Olympus Popup EE-1Version but it has the same issue. After having both to try, I am leaning toward a pistol red dot style in the low profile version. Also tonight I was shooting sports in portrait and I found that I could see thru both the sight and the evf at the sametime and see the red dot and the evf focus lock on simultaneously. Similar to binoculars.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

This is an interesting thread to read through. I can't imagine I could ever get on with such a set up, and not being able to have my eye on the viewfinder would really make things more awkward I think. A bit like those weird people that are right handed and hold the viewfinder to their left eye (pirates excused from being weird).

 

[Spiderx1]

I hear you. It is a little unnerving to drop the hammer on the shutter and not have the warm fuzzy of the focus lock on box. I took 2,045 frames last night at a volleyball tournament. Approximately 50% using an EE 1 aiming device by Olympus. It worked very well except I had to keep twisting it to keep the bore sight locked in place. If I put the camera down or behind my back to move I would occasionally bump it off bore sight. I also spent several hours trying to shoot some birds, It was very helpful in finding the small birds in the foliage with my 200-600. With this type of system I am able to keep both eyes open so I can see the on coming action, much better than anticipating thru the evf. Work in Progress.