Settings , in particular AF mode for stationary birds

[Cliff]

Whilst my BIF experiences have been positive with the A7iii and 200-600 , well, I say positive but the acuity can be a bit hit and miss, I think this may relate to the IS in the lens, but my main failure is with stationary small birds. Getting sharp focus is proving a challenge, most images are either miles off focus, or slightly off focus. I have used single point ( useless) and expanded flexible spot ( meh) . Today I went out, came across a wagtail on the ground about 30m away, so find a off a burst ( 10 FPS) using expanded flexible spot , when I got home and loaded the images all missed focus( again) the point of focus was in front of the wagtail. Also I’ve found I need high shutter speeds with the 200-600, I’m talking here 1/800 otherwise images are soft, now I did fire off a second burst of around 10 images and these were in focus but slightly soft
so, is this normal, what AF modes are others using and what shutter speeds and....... IS on the lens which mode
i know the lens is capable because I’ve tested it sat on a tripod, but in the field I shoot hand held, and to be honest I’m losing the plot
any suggestions on settings welcome
apologies for the long narrative

 

[RGaffney]

Whilst my BIF experiences have been positive with the A7iii and 200-600 , well, I say positive but the acuity can be a bit hit and miss, I think this may relate to the IS in the lens, but my main failure is with stationary small birds. Getting sharp focus is proving a challenge, most images are either miles off focus, or slightly off focus. I have used single point ( useless) and expanded flexible spot ( meh) . Today I went out, came across a wagtail on the ground about 30m away, so find a off a burst ( 10 FPS) using expanded flexible spot , when I got home and loaded the images all missed focus( again) the point of focus was in front of the wagtail. Also I’ve found I need high shutter speeds with the 200-600, I’m talking here 1/800 otherwise images are soft, now I did fire off a second burst of around 10 images and these were in focus but slightly soft
so, is this normal, what AF modes are others using and what shutter speeds and....... IS on the lens which mode
i know the lens is capable because I’ve tested it sat on a tripod, but in the field I shoot hand held, and to be honest I’m losing the plot
any suggestions on settings welcome
apologies for the long narrative

Can't understand why you are having trouble with sitting birds,when i hand hold i can still get sharp images I use spot metering and hardly ever shoot burst mode use a faster shutter speed as birds still are quirky preening and a little jerky I also use silent shutter, and back button focus works well for me at 84 years of age, my hit rate is very high hope you find the answer this is a great lens.

 

[Cliff]

Thanks for your reply, I’m used to the Nikon d500 and 200-500 and hand holding down to 1/60 th second and razor sharp images, so moving to Sony several weeks ago has been a steep learning curve and quite a challenge. I need to shoot very fast shutter speeds.......to get any chance of a sharp image
i have been shooting with mechanical shutter, maybe I’m getting shutter shock, but this does not explain the focus drift
ill perservere , I’ll try electronic shutter

 

[Cliff]

Here is an example of what I mean

 

[Hackbone]

I would try 1/1200 or higher. With that focal length the slightest movement will be multiplied. If it was really hot and high humidity you have atmospheric heat waves to shoot thru and you won't have much success there.

 

[Ziggy]

I came from the same Nikon rig and find that quite often my A9 and A7R III fail to lock on a small static bird. It's not softness, it's a default to infinity. It's an algorithm problem.
The only things I can suggest is to try a tracking setting, or repeated AF requests or try to lock on something nearby and move across.
My experience is documented here.
I wouldn't recommend Sony to someone needing record shots. And I've made a 30 grand investment in the brand.

 

[earchphoto]

have you tried tracking expand flexible spot? or just tracking?
also why burst if the subject is stationary? single shot is all you need, since you won;t use multiple photos that look exactly the same...

 

[Cliff]

I came from the same Nikon rig and find that quite often my A9 and A7R III fail to lock on a small static bird. It's not softness, it's a default to infinity. It's an algorithm problem.
The only things I can suggest is to try a tracking setting, or repeated AF requests or try to lock on something nearby and move across.
My experience is documented here.
I wouldn't recommend Sony to someone needing record shots. And I've made a 30 grand investment in the brand.

Many thanks Ziggy, this is helpful , I’m still of a mind that my recent investment is a white elephant, I’ll try a tracking mode to see if things improve, fingers Crossed it works, if it doesn’t ......

 

[Cliff]

have you tried tracking expand flexible spot? or just tracking?
also why burst if the subject is stationary? single shot is all you need, since you won;t use multiple photos that look exactly the same...

Hi, thanks for the reply, my choice to date has been flexible spot small without tracking, as I tried single spot and that was next to useless, the system Seems to suffer with focus drift, and front focussing, Is also a problem . I always shoot in high burst 10 FPS, with CAF, a single shot does not guarantee “the moment” , Burst doesn’t either but it does give me better options plus my main activity is fast moving subjects , so again I shoot burst mode to get the best angles and action
all the replies are appreciated, and I will take on board all suggestions and try them out
thank you very much

 

[Ziggy]

Many thanks Ziggy, this is helpful , I’m still of a mind that my recent investment is a white elephant, I’ll try a tracking mode to see if things improve, fingers Crossed it works, if it doesn’t ......

I kept my D500 and recently put in an order for the Nikkor 500mm PF.
The Sony FF sensors make images with more pop but if the gun doesn't go off ...

 

[Cliff]

I kept my D500 and recently put in an order for the Nikkor 500mm PF.
The Sony FF sensors make images with more pop but if the gun doesn't go off ...

This is as good as I’ve managed both stills and BIF, some way off what I’m used too, the gold crest was only 10 feet away but in the forest, so really dark and ISO 12800

 

[Ziggy]

On-sensor PD still isn't quite as good as off. So taking bursts as you do is a good idea. I shot the two rigs side by side for a year. Sony markets on quantity and that's about ease of use but Nikon does better.
I'd ramp up the shutter speed. The 200-600 is a big lens to use handheld. I use 1/4000 for BIF with my 400/2.8 & 2xTC and one stop less with the 1.4. Static birds get 1/1600 and 1/1250.
OSS settings make a lot more difference than VR settings on the Nikon. I'd like to see them software controllable.

 

[Ziggy]

Oh, and you may have a bad copy of the lens of course.

 

[Cliff]

Oh, and you may have a bad copy of the lens of course.

I did have the same thought so I did a controlled test on a tripod, vr off etc and the lens was Pretty good, shutter speed 1/500, wide open on a large target area ( horse) , yet hand held, small subject, the AF focussed on the foreground or adjacent areas

 

[Ziggy]

Hmm.
May be worth looking at what the EXIF data recorded as being what the camera thought it was locking on. A7Info.exe will tell you.

BTW the factory recommendation for perched birds is Medium Spot.

I'd like to see an AF area between Large Spot and Zone for BIF. And cross-type PDAF sensors.

 

[Cliff]

Hmm.
May be worth looking at what the EXIF data recorded as being what the camera thought it was locking on. A7Info.exe will tell you.

BTW the factory recommendation for perched birds is Medium Spot.

I'd like to see an AF area between Large Spot and Zone for BIF. And cross-type PDAF sensors.

Cheers, I’ll certainly look at A7info.exe, I must remember to turn off steady shot or whatever Sony calls VR for ?BIF , but then I switch between BIF and stationary often so that will cause me issues, on the Nikon rig I didn’t have to bother switching VR off, the combo was just sharp regardless , more practice required, I’m sure there must be something I’m doing wrong or rather something I’m not doing right

 

[Ziggy]

Yeah, I'm sure OSS can get in the way.

BIF at 90° have to have mode 2 or 3 but at 45° mode 1 is enough.

DPReview posters say the 2nd shot in a BIF burst will be soft with OSS on.
At 800mm equiv and handheld I have it on just to get the birds in the frame.

 

[jhousteniii]

Whilst my BIF experiences have been positive with the A7iii and 200-600 , well, I say positive but the acuity can be a bit hit and miss, I think this may relate to the IS in the lens, but my main failure is with stationary small birds. Getting sharp focus is proving a challenge, most images are either miles off focus, or slightly off focus. I have used single point ( useless) and expanded flexible spot ( meh) . Today I went out, came across a wagtail on the ground about 30m away, so find a off a burst ( 10 FPS) using expanded flexible spot , when I got home and loaded the images all missed focus( again) the point of focus was in front of the wagtail. Also I’ve found I need high shutter speeds with the 200-600, I’m talking here 1/800 otherwise images are soft, now I did fire off a second burst of around 10 images and these were in focus but slightly soft
so, is this normal, what AF modes are others using and what shutter speeds and....... IS on the lens which mode
i know the lens is capable because I’ve tested it sat on a tripod, but in the field I shoot hand held, and to be honest I’m losing the plot
any suggestions on settings welcome
apologies for the long narrative

If you don’t already have it set this way, change your AF sensitivity to 5 for most responsive. Medium flexible spot works best for me. Small is too small and expandable flexible spot is more likely to grab something next to your subject rather than your subject. Make sure the lens is on mode 1 for stationary subjects. FYI, if I want sharp photos on stationary subjects I use 1/1000 sec.

 

[Ziggy]

Worth a try if you're using Tracking AF.

I have tried Tracking on a static subject with inconsistent results. May help if there's good contrast.

 

[Cliff]

Yeah, I'm sure OSS can get in the way.

BIF at 90° have to have mode 2 or 3 but at 45° mode 1 is enough.

DPReview posters say the 2nd shot in a BIF burst will be soft with OSS on.
At 800mm equiv and handheld I have it on just to get the birds in the frame.

now, that's very interesting I have been using mode 1 for everything, pretty much because I forget to switch or remember which mode is better for different scenarios LOL, next time out I'll set it to 2 and give that a go for BIF, and stationary - all these tips are very welcome.....we'll get there in the end , patience and practice is key ( for me)

 

[Cliff]

If you don’t already have it set this way, change your AF sensitivity to 5 for most responsive. Medium flexible spot works best for me. Small is too small and expandable flexible spot is more likely to grab something next to your subject rather than your subject. Make sure the lens is on mode 1 for stationary subjects. FYI, if I want sharp photos on stationary subjects I use 1/1000 sec.

we'll, I'm really pleased I posted this conundrum of mine, I know have a better understanding of where I might be going wrong - I have set up on the AF on button a toggle between the AF modes - Zone and expanded flexible spot small - so I'll switch that this morning to medium flexible spot/ and zone and give that a go - I concur completely that the small expandable spot which I've tried does grab focus on surrounding areas every time , and good to hear your confirmation of faster shutter speeds I had been using 1/800 for stationary after much trial and error, so will raise that slightly as well ( light permitting) and now I have a better understanding of the lens modes for stationary and BIF, so mode 1 stationary and either mode 2 or 3 for BIF, if I can remember to switch of course - I have AF sensitivity set to 5 - every day is a school day as they say - thanks for the input, appreciated

 

[Ziggy]

I welcome the chance to pull together what I'm finding.
Some people say that they use mode 3 for all BIF. I've tried that and think it's possible to do better.

 

[Ziggy]

On the A9 I'm happy to shoot up to ISO 6400. That sensor can handle it. My editor will do NR by about a stop worth.

 

[Cliff]

On the A9 I'm happy to shoot up to ISO 6400. That sensor can handle it. My editor will do NR by about a stop worth.

yes, I've been pleased with ISO performance on the A7iii, I"ve found circa 8000 holds up quite well, 10000 in some situations can achieve reasonable results, the gold crest shot I managed at 12800 was a step too far without processing - there I did some post processing in PS to reduce the noise in the background slightly by creating a selection /mask of the bird and applying some Gaussian blur to the background layer ( only 6 points) - so my setting for auto ISO is set at 10000 upper limit - I shoot manual mode with auto ISO generally, then rely on +_ EV compensation if needed
your experiences written in a blog or document would certainly help others , would be an asset/ great resource

 

[Ziggy]

Kind of you to say.
Most people don't want to hear any negatives so aren't interested - the tribalism of the internet.

 

[Cliff]

Kind of you to say.
Most people don't want to hear any negatives so aren't interested - the tribalism of the internet.

ha ha, I know what your saying, but I look on it as a positive.....like everything in life , if you want to improve , sometimes you have to experience the negatives to get to better outcomes - its not very often things go well without some pain or frustration along the way LOL, its all part of the fun

 

[Ziggy]

Yep. They're complex and capable tools.

Here's another wrinkle that my R III shows; haven't tried the A9:

Do a panning burst that includes a distance jump, either backwards or forwards, of a few metres at least.
Mine won't adjust the AF if I'm recording but will if I'm doing a dry run.

I sent the unit back for a warranty check. They said they couldn't reproduce it - but only because they'd changed Focus/Release priority to Focus - so it stopped recording.

Now using one of these in that mode is very interesting. I've left the 7R III that way and I miss a heap of shots of BIF. Back in Release priority it was showing one or more green boxes when there was none on a bird. And that's OK. My Nikon does the same. Just means it's maintaining the focus distance on the assumption that the actual subject won't have diverged much (or it's actually calculated a likely track).

So when it comes to CAF options there can be several ...

How fast to lock on something that's available for a lock?
How long to keep that lock when something comes between us and it?
How quick to change to something else when it's lost?
What is preferenced among the possible locks? (and with Sony it's what's in the centre with distinctive colour and pattern).
Preference for a closer or a more distant lock among the possibilities? (Pana G9 has just added this as an option in firmware and I believe Nikon used to offer it as well. The G9 offers 3 other setting options).

I'd like to see Sony offer user-definable AF areas. The G9 does but it's CDAF only which is all in software. And you can keep its CDAF thanks all the same.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

I've not read all the replies, so excuse if I repeat anything. For all shooting of wildlife I use AFC, always have, and use centre focus for stationary, or near stationary subjects, it's by far the most accurate mode. OSS is on up to 1/1600th, then I switch it off, and always Mode 1, Mode 2 doesn't seem to do much and Mode 3 is just weird, because the image is moving in the viewfinder all the time. One thing I love about the RIV, is that ability to see the effect any changes you make have in live view. Line up a shot without OSS on at a low shutter speed and you can see the image wobbling, switch OSS on and it stops. That's a very good way of judging whether it's needed.

 

[garuda]

Ziggy, regarding the earlier part of this post, would it have helped to isolate the source of the issue of lens vs. cam AF and/or settings, if Cliff would try using Manual focus w zoom feature to ensure sharp focus? Then if blurred or not, you could suspect lens vs cam AF problem?

 

[Ziggy]

It's worth it if there's time to first AF and then DMF using focus peaking and magnification. That tells you whether and how far AF is out. Needs a tripod.

My 400 2.8 has started regularly back focusing by about 3cm with the 1.4 TC. 2x TC shots are soft too. Bursts and static. Two other owners report the same wrinkle. Mine's going in for testing.