Sony A9III & FE 300 F2.8 GM Announcement Discussion

[AlphaWorld]

Wanna' bet? A M-4/3 global shutter sensor was introduced several months ago. The current belief is that the GH7 will have one.

Now, if you want to qualify that with the only 'full frame' global shutter camera for a while, I can agree.

Yeah, first full-frame global shutter - Sony put that qualifier in each time they said it.

I'm wondering if they'll release an A1 mark II without a global shutter. If the 24 megapixels is the highest res global shutter they can make today (that has been suggested, and there was a hint in the announcement), and there are a lot of A1 shooters saying how they don't need a global shutter, then maybe announcing an A1 mark II with a stacked sensor without global shutter but with all the other goodies... That would quiet down the "but I want more pixels" and "I'm not swapping my A1 for that" crowds, and might nudge some people who are waiting to see the specs of the A1 mark II before committing to the A9 III. Could be a clever move.

Oh, Tim just said the same thing!

I also wonder if they plan to bring out the A9 design that lots of people imagined (more pixels, stacked but not global shutter, etc) with a different name, maybe next year. So the A9 is still their top-of-the-line speed demon, but they have a lesser body for the smaller budget? It's clear Sony has no fear of adding new camera families.

 

[Brownie]

Sony has put a bottleneck on how fast it can clear its camera’s buffer, which is where all photos it captures go as they are shot before they are written to memory, that can possibly happen by not using the CFexpress 4.0 standard. For those who argue it’s probably because the standard was only announced this past August, that doesn’t hold water: memory card makers and camera manufacturers are directly involved in setting the standard. That’s why memory card makers like ProGrade Digital were able to release a new CFexpress 4.0 standard card and reader almost immediately.

Sony knew it was coming a long time ago and still chose not to include it in the a9 III. It is also worth noting that the CFexpress 4.0 standard is fully backward compatible with no drawbacks, meaning there is no disadvantage to include it from a user’s standpoint.

Sony declined to explain why CFexpress 4.0 was not included in the a9 III.

Let’s talk about the possible three limitations of the Sony A9III: Image Quality, Human “bias” and Type A card as “bottleneck” – sonyalpharumors

www.sonyalpharumors.com

 

[spudhead]

Its a shame Sony have not put pre-focus on the new 300 2.8 I use it a lot on the a-mount version to pre set predicted focus areas which are perfectly in focus when you drop back to them

 

[AlphaWorld]

Sony has put a bottleneck on how fast it can clear its camera’s buffer, which is where all photos it captures go as they are shot before they are written to memory, that can possibly happen by not using the CFexpress 4.0 standard. For those who argue it’s probably because the standard was only announced this past August, that doesn’t hold water: memory card makers and camera manufacturers are directly involved in setting the standard. That’s why memory card makers like ProGrade Digital were able to release a new CFexpress 4.0 standard card and reader almost immediately.

Sony knew it was coming a long time ago and still chose not to include it in the a9 III. It is also worth noting that the CFexpress 4.0 standard is fully backward compatible with no drawbacks, meaning there is no disadvantage to include it from a user’s standpoint.

Sony declined to explain why CFexpress 4.0 was not included in the a9 III.

Let’s talk about the possible three limitations of the Sony A9III: Image Quality, Human “bias” and Type A card as “bottleneck” – sonyalpharumors

www.sonyalpharumors.com

Ah, pity. I was wondering if the slots were made as CFexpress 4.0 and Sony just didn't tell us That would have been cool, and handy.

Here's a guess as to why: The A9 III uses a pair of BIONZ XR chips, and we know the XR is at least a few years old - it first appeared on the A1, which was announced in January 2021. The specs of the XR must have bee solidified well before that (probably a year, maybe more). The V2 CFexpress type A spec uses PCIe 3 as its base; the V4 spec uses PCIe 4 as its base. Maybe the XR just doesn't have the PCIe 4 lanes that V4 requires?

Still, it gives Sony the option to make a refresh to the A9III in a year or two (yes, an A9 IIIa!) giving it CFexpress V4 slots. Just think of the A9III bodies hitting the second hand market...

Or if you want to be a bit more cynical, maybe it's so Sony has something to put in the A9 IV in three/four years time?

 

[Brownie]

Ah, pity. I was wondering if the slots were made as CFexpress 4.0 and Sony just didn't tell us That would have been cool, and handy.

Here's a guess as to why: The A9 III uses a pair of BIONZ XR chips, and we know the XR is at least a few years old - it first appeared on the A1, which was announced in January 2021. The specs of the XR must have bee solidified well before that (probably a year, maybe more). The V2 CFexpress type A spec uses PCIe 3 as its base; the V4 spec uses PCIe 4 as its base. Maybe the XR just doesn't have the PCIe 4 lanes that V4 requires?

Still, it gives Sony the option to make a refresh to the A9III in a year or two (yes, an A9 IIIa!) giving it CFexpress V4 slots. Just think of the A9III bodies hitting the second hand market...

Or if you want to be a bit more cynical, maybe it's so Sony has something to put in the A9 IV in three/four years time?

Mark me: The A1m2 will have new processors.

I honestly see no reason dual BionZ XR processors couldn't write at whatever speed they want. I suspect it was a calculated move to reserve it for the A1m2.

 

[AlphaWorld]

Mark me: The A1m2 will have new processors.

I honestly see no reason dual BionZ XR processors couldn't write at whatever speed they want. I suspect it was a calculated move to reserve it for the A1m2.

Guess we’ll see.

If they release the A1 mark II soon, it may also use XR, but may not be global shutter (so it won’t matter.

If they wait, then I agree, likely to have a new processor, and quite possibly support for the V4 type A cards (Gee, I really wanted to need to but another new and expensive card :-( ) Still, I think the ones I already own will still work at their rated speed.

- - - - -

I had a cute idea: what if Sony created a new setting for writing to dual card slots? What if they wrote alternate files to each card: write file 1 to slot 1, 2 to slot 2, 3 to slot 1, and so on. Why do I suggest this? Because it gives you a lot of emergency backup (card 1 fails, you still have half the images, and if you are in the habit of shooting everything two or three times, you’ll have copies of everything). And because it may be possible to overlap the writing (I don’t know if the two slots are fully independent, and can be written in parallel, but if they can, then you could get close to double the throughput).

Yes, this is not quite as good a backup as writing everything to both slots, but it gives you good coverage in the remote chance of a card failure, plus it gives you twice as many images before you have to change cards.

What do you think of the idea?

 

[Slug]

Bit of a waste of the second slot I think. I write jpeg to one and RAW to the other which gives me the back up I need .
The jpegs are good from A1 with plenty of room left for further processing.

 

[Brownie]

Lot of nervousness if you ask me. I write RAW to one card, second card is for overflow. If you're not shooting a wedding or some once in a lifetime event, backing up to a second card isn't something I worry about.

 

[Brownie]

If they release the A1 mark II soon, it may also use XR, but may not be global shutter (so it won’t matter.

With neither the A1m2 firmware nor the A9III being released until March, I'm betting that the A1m2 won't be here until the end of 2024, maybe early 2025. It seems Sony wants their new global shutter to be their star at the Olympics and an A1m2 release before that could make the 9III fade. This is my reasoning for just going ahead and getting an A1 now. I'm sure the camera is more than capable even though some think it's getting long in the tooth. Anything they do to it with firmware will just be icing on the cake.

On the other hand, we're still waiting for a second premium camera release. A7SIV? Maybe, but firmware for the A7SIII was rumored with this other stuff, so that seems a reach. It just doesn't seem like Sony would release firmware for the A1 and A7SIII then follow so closely with an updated camera. Then again, Sony does a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense to me, so my hypothesis could be all wet!

 

[AlphaWorld]

With neither the A1m2 firmware nor the A9III being released until March, I'm betting that the A1m2 won't be here until the end of 2024, maybe early 2025. It seems Sony wants their new global shutter to be their star at the Olympics and an A1m2 release before that could make the 9III fade. This is my reasoning for just going ahead and getting an A1 now. I'm sure the camera is more than capable even though some think it's getting long in the tooth. Anything they do to it with firmware will just be icing on the cake.

On the other hand, we're still waiting for a second premium camera release. A7SIV? Maybe, but firmware for the A7SIII was rumored with this other stuff, so that seems a reach. It just doesn't seem like Sony would release firmware for the A1 and A7SIII then follow so closely with an updated camera. Then again, Sony does a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense to me, so my hypothesis could be all wet!

The A1 remains an excellent camera. Sometimes I forget that, because it's "always been there" (I got one of the first two my dealer received). I've been using it more recently (and taking it out today - just me, the A1, the 70-200 GM II, and both TCs). I do love silent shooting!

If you are not heavily into eye-detect AF (using small spot, for example), the A1 is absolutely brilliant.

Don't forget that you have to use the dials on the left shoulder to change frame rate (single / Hi+ / Hi / M / L - you get to choose the speed for all except Hi+) and the focus mode (AF-S / AF-C / DMF / MF). Judging by the reports on the A9III that restriction is removed on the A9 III, and will probably be on the A1 II.

 

[AlphaWorld]

My idea was that you get a measure of backup (each card holds images from throughout the shoot) without losing capacity - you still get the full capacity of both cards (exactly as you do with overflow). PLUS there's the possibility of being able to save images to card faster. Not a big issue on the A1, but on something like the A9III, where clearing a full 192 frame burst might take 8 seconds. Cutting that to 4 or 5 seconds would be nice.

Probably never happen, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

Don't see how it's a "waste of the second slot" - it's using it to spread the load.

 

[Brownie]

The A1 remains an excellent camera. Sometimes I forget that, because it's "always been there" (I got one of the first two my dealer received). I've been using it more recently (and taking it out today - just me, the A1, the 70-200 GM II, and both TCs). I do love silent shooting!

If you are not heavily into eye-detect AF (using small spot, for example), the A1 is absolutely brilliant.

Don't forget that you have to use the dials on the left shoulder to change frame rate (single / Hi+ / Hi / M / L - you get to choose the speed for all except Hi+) and the focus mode (AF-S / AF-C / DMF / MF). Judging by the reports on the A9III that restriction is removed on the A9 III, and will probably be on the A1 II.

It can be programmed into one of the Custom modes on the A9, I think Spud investigated that for me. Are you sure it can't be done on the A1? I don't like it and it's something else I'll have to remember, but I reckon I'll get used to it like anything else.

 

[spudhead]

It can be programmed into one of the Custom modes on the A9, I think Spud investigated that for me. Are you sure it can't be done on the A1? I don't like it and it's something else I'll have to remember, but I reckon I'll get used to it like anything else.

For sure it can be done on the a9i , so would think it can be done on a1 menu diving required

 

[AlphaWorld]

It can be programmed into one of the Custom modes on the A9, I think Spud investigated that for me. Are you sure it can't be done on the A1? I don't like it and it's something else I'll have to remember, but I reckon I'll get used to it like anything else.

I didn't think it could. I shall see if it can because I want to know!

 

[AlphaWorld]

OK, this doesn't make complete sense to me, but I think it's what you meant. Let me know what you think:

ILCE-1 | Help Guide | Registering shooting settings to a custom key (Reg. Custom Shoot Set)

So you register a set of settings to a custom mode (the 1 / 2 / 3 on the PASM dial), but you don't activate it by turning the dial to 1 / 2 / 3 - you assign a custom button to activate it, and it only applies while you hold the customer button. Weirdly, there's a note that this only works if the PASM dial is set to P or A or S or M. When you hold the custom button, it swiches to that mode, INCLUDING the drive mode (except for self-timer). It also records "focus setting", but I'm unclear if that include focus mode (AF-S vs AF-C, etc). Would be cool if it did. When you release the button it reverts to the previous settings.

MAYBE the reason this requires a custom button is so that the override of the top left dials is only while the button is down?

I haven't tried this because I'm kinda busy today and don't want to save my settings, change one of them, test it, etc. Sorry!

Maybe someone else can test it and see if this works?

@spudhead - is that how it works on the A9?

If this works as advertised, I'll want to know if it requires sacrificing one of the custom modes to use it.

 

[-ST-]

Hi, Tony,
On my A1...

OK, this doesn't make complete sense to me, but I think it's what you meant. Let me know what you think:

ILCE-1 | Help Guide | Registering shooting settings to a custom key (Reg. Custom Shoot Set)

So you register a set of settings to a custom mode (the 1 / 2 / 3 on the PASM dial), but you don't activate it by turning the dial to 1 / 2 / 3 - you assign a custom button to activate it, and it only applies while you hold the customer button. Weirdly, there's a note that this only works if the PASM dial is set to P or A or S or M.

I know the documentation says this, but I use Recall Custom Hold all the time and it works fine when I have the PASM dial on 1, 2, or 3.

When you hold the custom button, it swiches to that mode, INCLUDING the drive mode (except for self-timer). It also records "focus setting", but I'm unclear if that include focus mode (AF-S vs AF-C, etc).

It does.

Would be cool if it did. When you release the button it reverts to the previous settings.

MAYBE the reason this requires a custom button is so that the override of the top left dials is only while the button is down?

I haven't tried this because I'm kinda busy today and don't want to save my settings, change one of them, test it, etc. Sorry!

Maybe someone else can test it and see if this works?

@spudhead - is that how it works on the A9?

If this works as advertised, I'll want to know if it requires sacrificing one of the custom modes to use it.

Check out

Recall Custom Hold - Sony Alpha Custom Camera Setting

Quickly Override your current group of camera settings with another group of registered settings, simply by holding down a Custom Key. This is an invaluable ...

youtu.be

 

[Brownie]

OK, this doesn't make complete sense to me, but I think it's what you meant. Let me know what you think:

ILCE-1 | Help Guide | Registering shooting settings to a custom key (Reg. Custom Shoot Set)

So you register a set of settings to a custom mode (the 1 / 2 / 3 on the PASM dial), but you don't activate it by turning the dial to 1 / 2 / 3 - you assign a custom button to activate it, and it only applies while you hold the customer button. Weirdly, there's a note that this only works if the PASM dial is set to P or A or S or M. When you hold the custom button, it swiches to that mode, INCLUDING the drive mode (except for self-timer). It also records "focus setting", but I'm unclear if that include focus mode (AF-S vs AF-C, etc). Would be cool if it did. When you release the button it reverts to the previous settings.

MAYBE the reason this requires a custom button is so that the override of the top left dials is only while the button is down?

I haven't tried this because I'm kinda busy today and don't want to save my settings, change one of them, test it, etc. Sorry!

Maybe someone else can test it and see if this works?

@spudhead - is that how it works on the A9?

If this works as advertised, I'll want to know if it requires sacrificing one of the custom modes to use it.

No, that's called Custom Hold. All of their FF cameras do that, I have them programmed in mine for a quick change. Actually pretty cool, you can hold a button and change to a preset shooting mode, then let go and return to where you were before.

This is beyond programming a custom mode on the dial or a custom key to call up a specific setting. Custom Hold allows you to override the camera's current setting momentarily for a different situation by holding a button, and the return to your previous settings be releasing the button. I believe this feature is on all Sony cameras from the A9 to now.

Here's how it works on the A7 IV and a7R III:

On the first tab, fourth page of the menu choose:

• Reg Custom Shoot Set>Recall Custom Hold 1, 2, or 3

In there it gives you:

• Shoot mode
• Aperture
• Shutter speed
• Drive mode
• Compensation
• ISO
• Metering Mode
• Focus Mode
• Focus Area
• AF Tracking sensitivity
• AF on

Choose your settings and register them, then go to the toolbox and choose custom key/dial
Choose which button you want the Custom Hold programmed to. I used AEL since I never use that button and it's right at my thumb.

• Assign Custom Hold 1 (or 2 or 3) to your chosen button.

Now, all you have to do is push and hold the button to change to your programmed settings momentarily. Release the button and it reverts to whatever mode you were in before.

In my case, I can move the switch on the lens and push the AEL button, and the camera goes to 1/200, f/5.6, Auto ISO, AF-C, etc. etc. Ialso have one set up for 1/160, and another set up for 1/2000 for different scenarios.

 

[AlphaWorld]

OK, that's news to me. When I looked at the documentation for changing focus mode, it told me about the dial. Likewise drive mode - all about the dial. And when I save a setup to 1 / 2 / 3 it doesn't save the focus mode or drive mode.

Sorry for the mis-lead, but I claim the documentation was incomplete (and my ignorance of Custom Hold was complete!).

Glad it does what you want, then.

I now have (yet another) rabbit hole to disappear down

 

[spudhead]

same old people think they know the camera they have and really they do not

 

[AlphaWorld]

same old people think they know the camera they have and really they do not

Absolutely. I walk though the entire menu as one of the first things I do with each new camera, but things are getting so complex now that even if I've seen the menu item, I don't always understand its intended use, let alone the subtleties.

 

[iamdlewis]

If they put a GS in the A1m2 it'll be an $8,000 camera. I am thinking they'll give it a lot of improvements ala A7R V, maybe add a few neato things from the A9III, but leave the A9III completely unique in the lineup with regard to the GS, flash sync, and speed.

The A1ii is going to be an $8000 camera global shutter or not. Inflation alone suggests a price of the A1 today would be about 7500. I agree the A1ii will not be announced until at least the fall of next year if not Jan of the following, especially if they add in a lot with the firmware update. If it does take till 2025 there is the possibility that it would be another 20% higher based on what some people running for president have stated.

I expect that the A1 firmware will add all the video features that appear on the lesser models. For photo I would say we will get the pre-capture, eye-AF prioritization and some general improvement in AF. Less likely for photo will be more subject recognition options.

 

[Brownie]

The A1ii is going to be an $8000 camera global shutter or not. Inflation alone suggests a price of the A1 today would be about 7500. I agree the A1ii will not be announced until at least the fall of next year if not Jan of the following, especially if they add in a lot with the firmware update. If it does take till 2025 there is the possibility that it would be another 20% higher based on what some people running for president have stated.

I expect that the A1 firmware will add all the video features that appear on the lesser models. For photo I would say we will get the pre-capture, eye-AF prioritization and some general improvement in AF. Less likely for photo will be more subject recognition options.

Sony's pricing history would keep it more toward $7k.

 

[AlphaWorld]

The A1ii is going to be an $8000 camera global shutter or not. Inflation alone suggests a price of the A1 today would be about 7500. I agree the A1ii will not be announced until at least the fall of next year if not Jan of the following, especially if they add in a lot with the firmware update. If it does take till 2025 there is the possibility that it would be another 20% higher based on what some people running for president have stated.

I expect that the A1 firmware will add all the video features that appear on the lesser models. For photo I would say we will get the pre-capture, eye-AF prioritization and some general improvement in AF. Less likely for photo will be more subject recognition options.

Right now the A1 offers only Human, Animal, Bird Eye AF. At the very least I would expect it to get all the subject recognition built into the A9III (which is everything in the A7RV, plus two tweaked Animal/Bird modes, prioritising animals or birds). If you mean, not more than that, then fair enough. But it will definitely get more than the A1 Mark 1.

The next year is going to be fun, as we see the fan wars over unreleased cameras - why the A9III must be better than the R1 or the Z9 mark II or the Leica M12… Many of the arguments between people who won’t be buying any of them

At least we won’t be bored. And the truth is likely to be that all the high end cameras are “best” at something, and no camera is best at everything. Well, except my A1 mark III, which will be perfect

 

[spudhead]

If we have learned anything from the last couple of camera body releases it is possibly that often the long wait is not worth it, and somewhat of a let down at times and given the fact we want different things from a camera, it seems that what might be better is to buy what is available now and live with the short comings or work around what you might see as the minus points. For sure we possibly are getting lazy and relying too much on in camera tech, because all things considered I suppose no current or future camera is or will be perfect, and in fact I can not think of a really bad current Sony full frame body. I guess the a9iii is still months away and then we have the wait for any issues to be sorted and processing software to catch up and so on

 

[iamdlewis]

Right now the A1 offers only Human, Animal, Bird Eye AF. At the very least I would expect it to get all the subject recognition built into the A9III (which is everything in the A7RV, plus two tweaked Animal/Bird modes, prioritising animals or birds). If you mean, not more than that, then fair enough. But it will definitely get more than the A1 Mark 1.

The reason why I think it will get the prioritization of Human/Animal/Bird and not all the other recognitions is because the A7Rv and A9iii use a chipset that the A1 doesn't have to do that work. Moving that work will take a significant amount of development and testing none of which would be used on future camera models. The deeper into development the A1ii is the less likely additional subject recognition will be added to the A1. The prioritization however requires less work as the identification is already being done it just needs to say which order to run the calculations in.

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

One thing I have noticed, is that Sony have made no further mention of the "deep learning" AF they introduced in the RV. That term is interesting as well as confusing, and I wonder if they have just dropped it.
Gary is right, a lot of the new cameras, well, all of Sony's recent output, have been relatively disappointing. The one thing they haven't done, maybe sensibly, is play keep up with Canon on the FPS rates on the lower range cameras, because I don't think they want to go that route without having a stacked sensor. They could easily have put a 15-20 fps E Shutter on the RV, but didn't. Maybe Canon have better control of rolling shutter, but from what I've seen, that's not quite true.

 

[Brownie]

One thing I have noticed, is that Sony have made no further mention of the "deep learning" AF they introduced in the RV. That term is interesting as well as confusing, and I wonder if they have just dropped it.
Gary is right, a lot of the new cameras, well, all of Sony's recent output, have been relatively disappointing. The one thing they haven't done, maybe sensibly, is play keep up with Canon on the FPS rates on the lower range cameras, because I don't think they want to go that route without having a stacked sensor. They could easily have put a 15-20 fps E Shutter on the RV, but didn't. Maybe Canon have better control of rolling shutter, but from what I've seen, that's not quite true.

Sony has to maintain separation between the product lines. Not only do they have their speed camera and their flagship, but the A7 line is broken up into 4 separate products. Keeping them unique forces us to choose which features we want or spend the money for the Big Kahuna to get it all.

 

[iamdlewis]

One thing I have noticed, is that Sony have made no further mention of the "deep learning" AF they introduced in the RV. That term is interesting as well as confusing, and I wonder if they have just dropped it.
Gary is right, a lot of the new cameras, well, all of Sony's recent output, have been relatively disappointing. The one thing they haven't done, maybe sensibly, is play keep up with Canon on the FPS rates on the lower range cameras, because I don't think they want to go that route without having a stacked sensor. They could easily have put a 15-20 fps E Shutter on the RV, but didn't. Maybe Canon have better control of rolling shutter, but from what I've seen, that's not quite true.

I think two things with the "deep learning" 1) the term just died, nobody really uses that anymore 2) for the camera to actually learn it would need the teaching to come from someplace, which means firmware updates and we all know how those have been.

I don't understand why the A7 line doesn't have the option for 15fps. That would give it a nice little separation from the A7R line but also keep it below the A9 series.

I think the A7iii, A9 and A1 screwed up our expectations as to what a next generation camera should have. We probably also discount how difficult it is to get some of the features to actually work.

 

[Brownie]

The camera doesn't learn, it's really not even AI. It's just heavily programmed to recognize what Sony's engineers told it to. It's really no different than Animal/bird/human face etc. It recognizes the human form but in many different poses, if the form has its back to you, from a distance, etc. I think the term has been dropped because they got called out on it too many times.

Of course, one does wonder what the camera would do if something like a train had it's back to you...

 

[Uncle Kevriano]

The camera doesn't learn, it's really not even AI. It's just heavily programmed to recognize what Sony's engineers told it to. It's really no different than Animal/bird/human face etc. It recognizes the human form but in many different poses, if the form has its back to you, from a distance, etc. I think the term has been dropped because they got called out on it too many times.

Of course, one does wonder what the camera would do if something like a train had it's back to you...

Sing the Locomotion?